Rizing Evolution – The Future Proofed Enterprise Podcast
Episode 6 Transcript: Technology Alone Won’t Make You a Hero – Part 2
(Editors note: this transcript was machine generated then lightly edited. You can read a summary, watch the original episode on LinkedIn or see the list of all podcast episodes.)
Intro
Welcome to a fresh perspective on business technology. This Rizing Evolution – the future proofed enterprise presented by Rizing a Wipro company you’ll hear from business and technology innovators who know how to use the latest technologies and business strategies to transform industries. And importantly, how these technologies and strategies can be shaped to your business needs in your way? Help your organization move in exciting new directions. Now here’s your host and Moderator Bonnie D Graham.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you, lady. We don’t know who you are, but we like your voice. This Rizing Evolution – The Future Proof Enterprise. I’m Bonnie. We have a returning panel, which is the first time this season we have, and we’ve decided to do Part 2 because we had such a hot topic a few weeks ago that we are repeating it. So I’m just going to say a brief welcome back to Lars’s Bergman. You could wave. Hello. And Megan Butler, Megan Marie Butler, to be perfectly honest, and Dean Edmondson. So I’ve got another one of my ChatGPT, I’ll call it Co versed poems I created and I edited it so there’s a human touch in it about what we’re going to do today. So everybody listen up and guess if you like it, I want to see a thumbs up. Dean, will you do that for me? OK, Laurence, it’s on board. Megan too. OK, so here we go. In the rhythmic dance of circuits and apps, a tale unfolds.
For technology. Maps enterprise software, often the scapegoat, is blamed for issues that disrupt. The Boat rock the. Boat. Yet the reality is a labyrinth, not a debate where success is woven, delicate chain to articulate, not just in the lines of code, but in the challenge of humans on HR, bestowed in this episode. Join us on a quest to explore where success builds its. Test people, processes, technologies. Embrace a trifecta of power in the enterprise space wave when I call your name Lars Bergman. There he is. Megan Marie Butler. There she is. Dean Edmondson. Stand tall. Well, they’re sitting tall. 3 savvy leaders, wisdom and wisdom to enthrall with Bonnie D. That’s me as the host of conversation takes flight. Navigating the landscape challenges insight. Can technology alone make you a hero? You. Task TuneIn for insights. We’re up to the task dispelling misconceptions. Truths will unfold. Insights for seekers of performance, refined and bold efficiency, secrets in the tech landscape. Find join our discussion enlightening and kind. TuneIn, or listen or watch. However you’re finding us today. The title of this episode is organized for success. Will technology alone make you a hero? Part 2? How did we do on that one? Lars’s, it was a little long, but. What? Do you think you liked it? Liked it to hit all the spots? Megan, what do you think?
Lars Bergmann
Select.
Megan Butler
I like the ending where it says that we need to bring technology, people and organizations together.
Bonnie Graham
There you go, getting to the point, Dean, what do you think? Pretty good.
Dean Edmondson
I really liked it. It reminded me I have a lot of Christmas shopping to do.
Bonnie Graham
Well, today is December 5th, so you’ve got a little bit of time. Thank you very much. I’d like to go around the table and do introductions, but since you were on the show 2 weeks ago, most people I think around the world know who you are. So here’s the deal. I have a little returning guest calculator I used for shows like this. So I did one for Lars and one for Megan and one for Dean and I found out that you all have a similar returning guest quotient in the world. They’re approximately 14.972 people who don’t remember or weren’t listening. That’s not too bad. Right, Lars, that’s pretty good. So I’d like you to repeat a shorter version of your bio. Who are you? What do you do? What’s your passion for this topic? Why are you here? And welcome back. So, Lars, I’m putting you on Speaker view. Let’s. Hear from you go.
Lars Bergmann
Right. Thank you very much, money. So here’s my background and I’m Lars Bergman. I’m the senior vice president of EAM Global business development and my background is I come from industry. I spent 30 plus years in utilities and often times I was in operations. But I was also sponsoring or advocating for transforming the organizations that I was. And so through trial and error, mostly trial, trying to minimize the error I’ve come across some sort of secret formulas for making sure that you can get transformation and change to stick in organizations. So that’s my background.
Bonnie Graham
You want to give us a clue about that secret formula? Are you sharing that today, Lars?
Lars Bergmann
I may sneak a little bit of that out, but hey, there may be a there may be a third get together. So I don’t want to spend it all here.
Bonnie Graham
OK. Well, for those 14.8792 people, there will be now there’ll be fewer because more people will tell people about the secret formula. I’m sure of that. So welcome back. Megan Butler, welcome back. Let’s hear from you. Refresh us. Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you excited about this topic, Megan?
Megan Butler
Thank you, Bonnie. My name is Meghan Marie Butler. And I’m a future of work strategist at Rizing, a bit about what I do. It’s always I kind of. I’m not sure what I do all the time. It’s help answer the tough questions and be able to build things kind of different ideas. But I think what I really enjoy and what I really bring to the table is my PhD work. That’s what I want to talk about. My passion in this topic. I’ve been looking at the topic of artificial intelligence and events. Chart management practices now for like I don’t want to say how many years I’ve been doing my PhD before, but it’s been more than five sadly and really coming to that realization that with this technology with all these new technologies coming out. They’re doing great things, but it really is the people, the processes, the structures and the culture and organizations that are either going to move us forward with technologies or not, and really, really realizing that the social processes or the social aspects of organizations are so critical and the role leaderships play and the role. That we can the things that we can do that are so simple that can really help with adoption in organizations, make organizations more ready to be adoptive and new technologies, innovation and ideas. And so that’s what I really want to talk about bringing to the table is those ideas and insights around those social aspects and what we can do in our day-to-day work to improve our adoption of new technologies.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much. It all comes down to the people, doesn’t it? Megan still the human still the social. Absolutely can’t forget that. And let’s go around the table. One more seat too. Mr. Dean Edmondson, welcome back. Dean 14.978. People are just waiting to hear from you. So go ahead. You’re shot.
Dean Edmondson
Thanks for having me back, Bonnie, my name is Dean Edmondson. I’m the vice president of business development for the Americas here at Rizing. And I’ve been in this space for quite a while in different capacities, working with software companies, working with service companies and hosting companies. And in all cases, why it’s important to me why I really enjoy it is I love of its product discussion. I love to be able to ask why and it’s not once. Why? But it’s at least three times Y to figure out what the root cause of what the problem is so that we can focus on trying to fix the problem. Whether it’s a people process or what. Whatever. And that’s, you know, that’s where I’ve landed over my career over 20 some odd years. I really enjoy working with customers to figure out why they have a problem, why they want to fix it, and how do we help them get there. And you know that that that’s the short of it. So thank you again for inviting me and look forward to today’s discussion.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you, Dean. And I’m intrigued with the three times why the trifecta is that another trifecta? Trying to get to the root cause of what the problem is, what needs to be fixed, why they want to do it, is that how it all shakes?
Dean Edmondson
Yes. It’s a little bit more simple than that. So early in my career I worked for Sony and Sony is obviously a Japanese company and they embraced Arthur Deming and total quality management, total productive management and Arthur Demmings approach to the three wise was you’re never going to get the true answer on the first why and if you keep asking why you’re going to finally get to the root cause of why problems happen or why change needs to happen. And so there’s elements across the organization that you need to ask the why to and follow the why to get to the real meaning of, you know, why change needs to happen.
Bonnie Graham
Very interesting. I remember when I was doing branding work for SAP years ago in marketing and various capacities and various solutions teams, there was a mantra that when you were putting together some kind of a campaign or trying to brand a solution, you had to. Keep asking. So what do you remember those days? So what? What is? What is it? Why should anybody care? So what? What is it going to do for someone? And that was the drill down. Dean of trying to get to that, that route, that core. And it sounds like it’s a similar philosophy. So thank you for sharing that. We’re still waiting for our secret formula we’ll get. To that later. OK, now is a part of the show where I’ve asked you to send me a brand new, not new in lore, but a brand new to the show. Oh, fictional quote from a movie or a TV character or a song lyric, and we’re going to unpack those and relate them to our Part 2 topic today. Lars Bergman, you have sent a scene from Jurassic Park, 1993 American sci-fi action film. I like the way they kind of try and condense. It’s not. Yes. sci-fi action doesn’t say danger and horror and dinosaurs roaming and it just. Packs it there, starring Sam Neill, Lars Dern, Jeff Goldblum and Richard Attenborough. This was the first installment in the Jurassic Park franchise, the first film in the original Jurassic Park trilogy. Set on the fictional island of Isla Nublar, off Central America’s Pacific Coast near Costa Rica, where a wealthy businessman. On him and a team of genetic scientists, I’ve always wondered what that is. Have created a wildlife park of D extinct dinosaurs. When industrial sabotage leads to with catastrophic shutdown of the power facilities and security precautions, a group of visitors, including Hammond’s girlfriend’s grandchildren, probably girlfriend there too, struggle to survive and escape the perilous island. So here are the quotes. John Hammond, played by Richard Attenborough, says all major theme parks have delays. When they opened Disneyland in 1956, nothing worked and Dr. Ian Malcolm played, of course, by the wonderful Jeff Goldblum, says.
About John, if Pirates of the Caribbean breaks down, the pirates don’t eat the tourists. Sorry marks. You expect us to take that one really seriously. What does this have to do with our? Topic ours, go ahead.
Lars Bergmann
Ray, what could this possibly have to do with the topic today? So you know, when I thought about that quote and I thought about it often in the in the context of process and technology programs and how to roll them out. And you know, I’m imagining these pirates, you know, eating the tourists, you know over, you know, I don’t know how they prepare them, barbecued or otherwise, but and. And I’m left with this really graphic image and. And then I stand up in front of a room of folks that that are ready to receive some new process and technology. And I’m like. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Am I the tourist? But you got to get this right. This serious stuff. And so anybody that’s would suggest that. Well, that’s too extreme. The tourists would. They are not threatened by the pirates. They really are. So if we as the technologist, if we’re the folks, you know, bringing change and transformation to folks, you know, we’re the ones that have to be thinking about how to do this right or the pirates are going to eat the tourists and you know we’ve got to find the ways to. To get this done and get it done correctly because it’s very serious changes, serious business doesn’t mean that the project can’t be fun, and that the process of change can’t be exhilarating and thrilling and everything. But it’s really serious stuff and so that’s why I love that quote. There’s a there’s a couple of other ones in there in that movie that are related to developing lines of code and getting it right. And all that kind of stuff. But there’s, there’s a lot of good little nuggets. In Jurassic Park, they should have stopped with the first movie. By the way, in my opinion it was still groundbreaking, I don’t know how you’d ever repeat the success of that, but I think they’re still making them. They’re up to, like part 84 or something.
Bonnie Graham
There you go. And the key is the how do you repeat the success and the keyword is success. They wanted to repeat the success reaching and hoping and planning and plotting. Yes. Thank you for the quote. Very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard that one before. I don’t think I ever saw your ask part. Not my kind of thing. But the gun dinosaurs and all. I get scared easily. Thank you very much. I’m moving on to Megan Marie. We’re gonna use Marie today because I know you like your middle name. Megan has picked a quote from Antihero, which is a pop, rock and synth hyphen pop synth pop song by of course, American singer-songwriter Taylor Swift and the lead single from her 10th studio album midnights in 2022. This was Megan the best selling song of 2022. She wrote the video directed it everything 3 and incarnations. Of Taylor Swift reenacting one of her nightmares about her legacy and last will with actors playing her fictional sons and daughter-in-law, the single broke global and US records for the biggest opening day Spotify streams for a song and reached the top 10. In 40 territories, including #1 Australia, Belgium, Canada, Croati and I can’t even begin anti Taylor, anti hero made Taylor Swift the only soloist in U.S. history to debut 5 songs atop the chart and the first artist to score radio number ones across the 20 thousands. The 20 tens and the twenty 20s. Like page. Woohoo. Tell her. Here’s the quote. It’s me. Hi. I’m the problem. It’s me. OK. Megan, take it away.
Megan Butler
I did not know that much about that song. That’s really interesting and congratulations to Taylor Swift. She’s done an incredible has had an incredible career, continues to do so. But I think it was the line in it, it’s always made me laugh since the song came out because in so many situations in life. We want to blame the problems elsewhere and realizing that we’re mostly our own problems and realizing in business too. A lot of the times when we look around, times like what’s going on, we need to realize like it is our zoo, it is our keys and we need to take control of it and I don’t mean that in like a mean way, but it is like and I think just like really reflecting what Lars is saying. I love your quote, Lars, that was the best one yet, but that idea of like we’ve got, we’ve got to get it right and as in leadership and rolling out new technologies, we need to look at ourselves and not look at end users aren’t using the product well. There’s a problem with them. No, there’s not a problem with the end user. We need to look at ourselves and what we’ve rolled out and how we’ve done it, because exactly as I said, if we’re if we’re not taking care of the tourists, we’re gonna scare them away and they’re not gonna want to come back. They’re not gonna trust the system. All those things. And so that’s why I picked that one. But I think Lars. And braced, finding a better quote.
Bonnie Graham
It’s our, it’s our park, it’s our pirates. It’s our dinosaurs and it’s our zoo, right. It’s all. Yes, it’s me. It’s me. Thank you very much.
Megan Butler
So we need to we need to manage it.
Bonnie Graham
Raise your hand. It’s me. I’m the problem. Yes. Take responsibility. Accountability comes to mind. Thank you very much. Let’s go to Dean’s quote. Dean likes Ted Lasso a lot. So he has a Ted Lasso quote, of course, played by Jason Sudeikis speaking to Rebecca and Leslie. Ted Lasso, of course, American sports comedy, drama, comedy, Drama Gets Hyphenated. Dean, I thought that was very interesting. Other genres when they combine them, don’t. How many drama TV series 2020 to 2022? This the pilot season one episode one aired on August 14th, 2020 seems like so long ago. So I’m not going to get into what he what the character was, but it was a wonderful show. And those of us like me and I think you, Dean threw the fact that they only wrote a three season arc to the show. It should have gone for four or five or six or seven because we would have had more quotes. Here’s the quote you picked. The harder you work, the luckier you get. Huh? You didn’t put the hot in there but I found it on the clip. OK, Dean, what does this have to do with our topic?
Dean Edmondson
Yeah. So it well, it sounds really simple it. It does take a lot of hard work to get whatever you want out of something, but stick with me here for a second. The hard work is not just putting in the hours, not putting in, you know, the time to get this done. It’s trying to control entropy. And for those of you who aren’t familiar with entropy, it’s the second law of thermodynamics. All things will tend to the greatest possible disorder. If you don’t trust me on that, put a 2 year old in a clean room with a couple 100 toys. Come back an hour and let me know what that room looks like. That’s entropy and all things have entropy. That’s just the law that we deal with on a daily basis. So hard work is controlling that. Hard work is putting SOP’s in place, it’s getting people aligned, getting us all involved in a common direction to get there. It’s not just, you know, working at our computers or working at our craft. It’s making sure that we’re all aligned, working together and controlling chaos because chaos will happen in every process, in every organization and every team that we build, unless we put control around it and it takes a lot of. Hard work to control that. Ross. And so I wanted to take it a step further because it’s not as simple as hard work. And one of my professors early on in, in my college career said practice makes better because there’s no such thing as perfection because we’re always dealing with things like this. And so I, you know, I think we always need to sit back and think and strive to get better at something. And realize that every time we get better, something’s going to pull us to unbutton or in some way I know that’s not a word, but something’s going to pull it apart and we just constantly need to fight that.
Bonnie Graham
Unfettered just became a word, and we’re ascribing it to you and Lars and Megan are going to help me copyright it or trademark it or something. Dean. Would you like that? That’s your gift. OK.
Dean Edmondson
I do. I do. I like them better.
Bonnie Graham
See, nothing just goes by the board, by the by the side of the road. Here we pay attention to everything very interesting. And Megan, I agree with you. We had some actually three really good quotes today. And I want to tell our viewers and our listeners that we don’t get together as far as I know, at least not with me before the show and say, OK, here’s some great quotes, Megan. Which one of these three do you want, Dean? You take one. And Lars, this all done independently, and it always amazes me how when we’re focusing on the topic but not with the words of the topic and the. Quote. These wonderful thing happens, the synchronicity. This this excitement about finding pop culture quotes. That we really to the meaning of the topic today. So thank you. The three of you. I appreciate it. I realize having to send me two quotes in four weeks for three weeks was really a lot of work, but I appreciate that. OK, let’s move on. You sent me a couple of new statements for our discussion round table, and I’m gonna start with Lars Bergman’s number one statement. I put it in the chat for you, Lars. So here’s what’s going to happen. I know you remember. I’m going to read this. It’s short, but it packs a punch and I’m going to ask you to unpack it for us. Then Megan, sitting next to you virtually. Megan, I’ll ask you to agree or disagree with. Mr. Bergman and then Dean, I’ll ask you to agree or disagree with either or both. OK and then Lars will give you a chance to go back to them. If there’s anything you want to say by that point, I will have picked one of yours. Megan, put it in the chat for you. Go around. Agree or disagree? And then one for Dean. Let’s see how many we can cover today. So. The statement Lars sent me that I picked this, he says. I’ve yet to see an organization that doesn’t have an overly optimistic view of their maturity and capacity for change and honest assessment derived from throughout the organization is invaluable. That’s the statement and the and the result or the impact. So Lars go ahead.
Lars Bergmann
Yeah, I just am years and years and there’s a there’s a range to this overly optimistic or in some cases it can be downright arrogance. In some cases it’s just healthy confidence within an organization. I’d like to, I’d certainly like to see an organization have the. The healthy confidence and really an honest I think I used this term the last time were together sort of an adult perspective on their capacity for. Change and to be able to assess that and constantly ask themselves as an organization. Can we do the things that we’re setting about to do? Are we being honest with ourselves? Are we being honest with the people that work in the organization, the folks that are that are making this investment and this change? Are we doing everything that we need? It’s something that Megan said, which. And is understanding you know when change comes that we’re actually going about it in a healthy way that we’re not just pursuing the folks that might be resisting, we’re peeling that back and really understanding what is, what’s the reason for their resistance it may be. That the tools. Aren’t functioning and somebody puts them into the category. Which is. Now you’re just resisting change. You just, you know, this better. You know, it’s amazing. And you just don’t want to do it because you don’t like leadership or whatever the case may be. So how you actually get to that honest assessment? You can’t just walk in the front door and say, what do you? Think of yourself. Do you? Do you think you’re amazing? I think most senior. Leaders will go. Of course, I’m amazing. That’s why I’m here. You got to get to it. You got to peel it way back. You got to take it down to the grassroot level. Down to the deck plate level and really. Understand. The capacity of the organization and once you have that, then you have to continually ask yourself the question all right. We know where we are, we know what we are as an organization. Can we do this?
Bonnie Graham
And we do this well. Put, Megan. Go ahead. Agree or disagree?
Megan Butler
When Lars first started, I, there was a moment where I was hoping I could disagree with him and I, and unfortunately I can’t. I have enough evidence to support that. I do agree that senior leadership in particular overestimates the capabilities of the organization and the needs of the organization, particularly maturity and abilities. To do things like change management. On the flip side of that, though, what we’ve discovered using the assessment tools and doing other research and maturity is that people in the organization they’ll have tend to have a better grasp of. The reality of the ability of the organization to change. Sometimes if at a senior leadership level you’re not able to see that, sometimes asking people on your analytics team, you know, what do you think do you think we can do this and let them have a moment of honesty and they’ll probably tell you what the real barriers are and what’s going to be resistant to change. So yes, from a senior leadership perspective, I do agree that we overestimate from mid level manager and individual contributor level. I would say that they’re they probably have a better perspective on what’s realistic for the organization.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you. Realistic is a good word in there. Dean, join us. Agree or disagree with either or both of your colleagues on the panel.
Dean Edmondson
Well, I like all the comments I like. Yeah. And I would agree with all the comments. And I think foundationally, you know the way Lars team this up is senior manager. There’s they’re geared to be more optimistic. And that they tend to need to think more optimistically because they’re constantly fighting the realist, pessimistic view of, you know, what’s going on. And that doesn’t provide the growth that they need. So they have to think outside the box and that’s a struggle. And that’s probably why they invite us and other, you know. Valued consultants to come in and help them understand is this picture realistic? Is it too optimistic? And then how do I phase my optimism into a very realistic approach? So I like it on multiple fronts again and I kind of think that people are geared in that way because you have more optimists. Meeting organizations than pessimists, if I was to surmise.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you. Optimist versus pessimist. Lars, this was your conversation starter. What do you think? Anything you want to give back?
Lars Bergmann
It was mine, but, but Megan and Dean did such a better job of articulating what I was trying to articulate. So I’m going to go with what they what they provided final answer but one of the things that that Megan pointed out, I wholeheartedly agree with is, is that sort of realistic? View. Is usually closest to the work, so it’s when when you get down within the organization, that’s where you’re going to get a realistic view. I totally agree with Dean that, that, that optimism at senior leadership, of course you need. I mean we’re tasked with doing new and amazing things and delivering day in and day out. And boy, you sure don’t want a bunch of pessimist. You know you don’t want me or running the company, right? You don’t know. We can’t do this. And so, you know, when you look at that balancing act that you have to hit, you know, as the two of them were talking. I was thinking about all the nuances in between, you know, the. Perfect is the enemy of good. You know that keeps strong. We can get better, we can get better. We can. We can make this thing so perfect and then it never happens. So balancing all those interests, their conversation just, you know, teed up in my mind how nuanced this at the end of the day and it all comes down to the people and. Again.
Bonnie Graham
You’re very gracious, Lars. That was nice. And it was. It was good. That’s why we do the roundtable. That’s why the shortcut to agree or disagree in brief sound bites we it brings a lot out in a very short period of time. And I appreciate that. Good, good starter. Let’s move on. Meghan Marie Butler. I’m looking at the new statement. #2 you sent me. This interesting. Say existing sociotechnical structures and I want you to break that down and define it for us. Existing sociotechnical structures can be managed to more or less adopting of new innovations and technology. One sentence, but it’s packed. Go ahead and unpack it. For us, Megan, go ahead.
Megan Butler
I recognize I missed a word in there as well, but anyways the grammar is good, social technical processes. Let’s start with that. So those are existing things that are already that we already operate in an organization. So those are our policies, that’s the culture. And if we can think about it as Big C culture. Culture, as senior leaderships that we hope or we want our organization to have and little see culture being the culture like how work actually is done in the organization day by day. It also includes things like our infrastructure for our technology. Infrastructure for buildings or facilities and includes the technologies that we already use, the software and the hardware processes. What else is there in there? Culture, leadership and the technology. So all these, all these things already exist in organizations. That’s how we operate day-to-day. When new technologies or innovations come in. They disrupt them. And it’s then a lot of the time as we’re very been talking about, it’s the way work gets done that’s being disrupted, the end user that’s being disrupted and we need to be thinking about that. And as managers and senior leaders is not just thinking about this one technology that we need to bring in, but we can actually be managing our organization in a way. Actively to be more accepting of innovations in general and new technologies compared to sometimes I and what I notice that is happening, a lot of organizations, they’re just it’s one of those things they’re not aware that they’re able to manage it, so they simply don’t so. So it just ends up being as Dean kind of put it earlier chaos. I actually have some research in my PhD notes about when we already have chaos in the organization, that it tends to create more chaos if there isn’t strong policies already established into how technology is invested in, then each time new ideas become more about a political stance. And personalities, rather than understanding the process of how do we bring in a new technology into the organization to have successful adoption so. In this sense, as senior leaders is not just thinking about how do we do this one project, but how do we actively encourage our organization to always be on the lookout for how can we do work better and then that in that sense, if we’re already in? Looking for that better way of doing things when we do bring in new technologies or these changes. They’re easier for the organization to adopt them and to embrace them.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much. Let’s go around the table. Dean, you’re sitting next to Megan on this round. Go ahead. Agree. Disagree.
Dean Edmondson
I agree, and I’ll and I’m not as deep in this topic as Megan, by any stretch. So she brings a lot of academic experience plus professional experiences she has here. But if I simplify it, it’s, you know, adoption happens by being aware of who your user community is and making sure that they have buy into it. And there’s a lot of ways in which we can slice that and make sure that it happens, but I think that’s one of the most important things, whether you’re adopting, you know, a new service, you’re adopting a new technology, adopting new processes. It’s just understanding how what’s in it for them with them. What’s in it for me? And then how does this make my job better, easier and the company more successful? Because at the end of the day, I think we’re all working for organizations because we want that organization to be successful and we want to be successful in the organization. So those tiebacks are important.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you. Well said. Lars, join us.
Lars Bergmann
Totally agree. And there were a couple of things that that resonated for me. You know, more than, I mean, just the topic itself. And Megan’s deep understanding of it. And one is the environment and the cultural norms, those things that when you’re when you’re not watching people, what are they actually doing. And how are they using the systems are? Are they following the process, or have they figured out a way around it? Again, back to that point, if you can be honest. They’ve probably found a better way to do it, and you know, so they’re off the cow path and they say, well, there’s a shortcut right there. I don’t need to stay on this cow path and then the other one is just, you know, making sure that. The. The Dean’s point? The whiff them. If they really understand what’s in it for the organization. I’ve always struggled with projects that just are discrete. OK, we’re gonna put this thing in. We’re gonna stand it up. We’re gonna go live and man, we’re gonna run for the hills. And when you do that, you’re missing out on the big opportunity to enhance it, you know, stabilize it and improve upon it because you didn’t understand why you did. It’s like moving into a house that, thank goodness we got our building permit. We’re done. You know, we’re, we’re we can occupy the house. That’s not where it’s done or not where it ends. So I just think there’s so much here to benefit from the viewpoint that these projects have to continue. And you really have to get the full value out of them, so good stuff.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much. Megan. Anything you want to say? Back to the gentleman on the panel.
Megan Butler
No, just really like how they continue to articulate the point and it is, it can sound like social technical processes can sound something so academic, but in reality what we’re talking about is how work is done. And then if we’re thinking about that and thinking about our end users, what’s in it for me, what does the process really like really look like? And is Lars really pointed out? You know that real challenge of if they don’t know what’s going on and then they start creating work arounds, but then all of a sudden it starts violating your data privacy, data privacy policies for example, like we really need to know what’s going on. And we need to ensure that the community of users in our organization as well aware and bought in. So I really like the points that both of them brought to the conversation. Thank you guys.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much for that. And Megan and one word that Lars said popped out. I think Dean might have used it also. Honestly, how do you get people to tell you what they really think about something? Why are they creating the work? Was it a good idea to bring in this new technology? Was it well thought out? Was it tested? Was it baited with the right people? Because we all know they’re organizations where infrastructure includes a lot of apps and a lot of things that are broken from the get go and nobody’s asking. Should we do it better? It’s just the way it is. So where does? Where does the honesty pay off? Where do you ask for it? Where do you do something once you get it? If you ever get it at all, I’m going to leave it there. But to me there’s a whole web of consequences to looking that deeply into who brought it into the organization, who was the flag waiver, who was the one who instituted it? How well did they test it and prove it before they asked people to adopt it? Right? How well was that part done before you say to people? Oh, change management is great. You’re all going to get on board. You’re going to do this a great job with this. And we think this going. Make your job easier, people say. What? I’m just gonna leave it there. I’m sure there’s a movie quote for that, but I don’t have it. Ohh, I’ll quote Jack Nicholson and a few good men. You know my favorite quote. You can’t handle the truth. We’ll just leave it there. OK, I’m off the hook now. Let’s go to Dean. I’ve picked your statement #2 for this episode. Part two of our topic, Dean, he says this interesting. We get to get into a lot of detail here, Dean says organizational change is not easy, especially across an employee base with varied levels of experience, maturity and perspectives. We found that open communication clear goals involving employees in the process offering support and training, celebrating small successes and emphasizing the benefits of change helped to create a positive and adaptable organizational culture. That’s a mouthful, Dean. Go ahead, unpack for us, please.
Dean Edmondson
Yeah, there’s a lot. There’s a lot in there. So there’s no way I’m going to dive into all of this. So I’m going to, I’m going to spend a little time focusing on perspectives. Each one of us come into problems. With a different way to solve them in a different perspective, because we’re by nature, we’re all different. I think it’s the Myer Briggs model or one of those models that kind of categorize us as either being an analytical being, a driver, being an amiable or being expressive. And I think you know at the end of the day, if we accept those tags, if you will. And we allow other people around to acknowledge those tags not out loud, but to realize the type of person or people that we are. Are and to drill all this down instead of corporate change? Personal change? How does personal change affect us? It’s gonna change. Personal change is going to affect the amiable versus an analytic very differently, and it’s part of the leadership’s responsibility to understand how people are situated and culturally how they’re different in the organization. To allow them to accept and participate in that change and so we can’t just put a broad brush on the change management and say this what OC looks like. We have to drill down a level and for those people that are maybe a little less receptive to change because naturally a little less receptive to change. But when they buy in, they buy in at 120%. We have to look for ways to get them to buy in. So when we talk about how do we celebrate? How do we get the broader team involved? Maybe some of those people that are less receptive to change are part of that piloting process, so that whenever they buy in, they’re buying in at a much higher level and they’re helping the rest of the team understand the detail behind it. Just a different way of thinking it through and you know, figuring out. How do we get everybody involved? Not broad brush. This how change is going to happen, because at some point the leadership team needs to encourage and make sure that everybody has bought into whatever we think is right for the organization. And then how do we gain endorsement across the organization for the same.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much. Let’s move around. Agree or disagree, Lars, as you’re sitting next to Dean on this round? Ahead.
Lars Bergmann
Love it? Absolutely. Love it. I wanted to scream out Hallelujah, but I’m gonna. I’m gonna contain myself. But that’s it. It has to happen at that detailed, granular level. When, when? When you’ve identified somebody that maybe is a change agent. And sometimes those are good, and sometimes they’re they can be challenging. But if you identify somebody as a change. Somebody that people really look to and respect and maybe they’re putting up that resistance, you know, and you need them to come along. You can’t just go to them and say, get on board or else you, you need to understand really start to unpack to your use your term money. Why it is that they’re acting the way that they are and understanding their personality and their traits and their experience and their level of expertise and what they’re giving up in this process, maybe they’re not going to be the expert. Anymore. Maybe you know the machine is going to be the expert and you know, maybe they’re looking for a new job in. All of that has to be understood at that level of detail, as opposed to Dean’s term. The broad brush of changes come and get on board. You know the don’t want to let the train leave the station. But that that is and what this about it, it happens at a real visceral level for employees.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you, Megan. Join us.
Megan Butler
I think Lars indeed have made it fantastic points. It was actually part of observations in my research that I’ve noticed over the years with change that exactly is, Lars says it’s very emotional, it’s very real and it’s in people’s faces. And as Dean points out. That if we’re not really helping people understand why they’re going through the change that they’re going through. There’s a lot of fear and risk, but I think Lars has made a really big point is that there are real things happening and I know in one project were working on what identified was exactly that was and what Lars pointed out was they were no longer the expert and in an organization where one of the big things that happened in the organization was in the first few months, people were expected to go out and network. And so your network was part of your value in the organization and the software were offering to install was going to devalue that network because that would become the expert of who to contact instead of the person. And there was real reactions from people and sitting there observing it, you start to realize like, these reactions are very, very valid because you are taking away somebody’s expertise or they’re. What they feel established in if for any of us, if you know if we came up with a product that you know could do 90% of change management for us or could do 90% of the implementation for us, whatever it was, we’d feel the same way. About and feel just as threatened, and you may not even recognize why you’re feeling that threatened from a new technology and innovation. You just know that it’s going to impede with your job. And I think it is on our side to understand what the real impact of these technologies are, particularly as we start working with more products like AI, which we know are going to have a disruptive impact to people’s jobs and. The way they work. And we need to recognize that before we expect people just to change how they do their job.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much, Dean. Anything you want to share back with your colleagues?
Dean Edmondson
I think that this you know as we go through this whole process, it’s definitely a 1 + 1 = 3 and you know everything that Megan shared and everything that large shared just amplified. You know, the perspective that I had. The other thing that I would add is that going through this exercise, being part of this. This Rizing evolution is a change. It’s a change for all of us in each part of day and no matter which social style we are, the amiable the driver, analytic, expressive, the expressive, just loves it. The expressive wants to be here every day and wants to do all the talking and that that’s an it’s an easy fix for the expressive. But you do a really good job, Bonnie, and making sure that all of our social styles, which we each bring a different one. We’re prepared for today because you give us the opportunity to participate in it by sharing what topics we’d like to talk about. You give us the opportunity to collaborate amongst ourselves to feel like we’re part of a scene and then you give us feedback as we go through this. So this in and of itself is, you know part and parcel of that and you’re working across all four social styles to make sure that we’re comfortable just, you know, running through not just but running through a change in our day to help the broader audience understand what something what. What seems simple as Rizing evolution, but it’s really complex when you think about all the different topics, all the different people, all the different styles bringing it all together. Well done.
Bonnie Graham
Ohh, absolutely. Well, that’s why I developed this format over the years where we have sound bites rather than lecturing or one-on-one interviews you all are brilliant. You’re all dedicated and committed to this topic and to what you all do at Rizing in your professions. So why not tap into this collaborative roundtable thought process and hear what you all have to say. Sometimes you will disagree, sometimes you will agree. But I like the nuances and the flavors and especially the way I use them. I came up with the idea of the pop culture quotes is to bring in something the audience will say, oh, that was really cool. I love Jurassic Park. What in the heck is Laurens gonna do with that on the show about change management, so trying to get everybody to be engaged in staying engaged. But I have a comment to make and thank you, Dean for your very kind words. I have a comment to make about all of this. I’m thinking sometimes management brings in a person who is more technologically astute or capable than people who are already in the organization. It’s not a new technology. It’s a person who understands and can handle the existing technology better than the people who are there. Think about that aspect of change management, right? It’s a human being who knows tech better than the other people on the team. Think about the threat. Why did you hire that person? Are they gonna take away my? It’s we’re not talking AI. We’re talking a human being who gets it. Maybe who is better equipped to work with this new technology, right, Megan. What? What do you do then? What do you? Oh.
Megan Butler
You did. You described the 1st 10 years of my career. And as Dean said, the person who’s there excited every day for the change. Yeah, you just, you get put down. A lot. Yeah. Here but.
Bonnie Graham
It can be you. It is. It comes in and threatens everything and upsets an applecart of some kind of equilibrium. I want to sneak in. Thank you so much, Dean. I’m still blessing.
Dean Edmondson
Well, well, can. I can I offer a point on that, because I think there’s two options. I think you can turn up and just recoil and ask the question why, why? Why? Or you can embrace the new person that’s there and learn as much as you can and then figure out you know what the opportunity, how the opportunity presents itself for you there. And if it doesn’t present itself for you there, you’re going to take away some knowledge that you didn’t have to some other place. And there’s nothing wrong with. That approach.
Bonnie Graham
Let your resume do The Walking and then see what management does with who’s left, who’s left manning the boat. I’m. Thinking of tanning?
Dean Edmondson
Just don’t turtle up, just don’t turtle.
Bonnie Graham
We got dinosaurs. We have turtles. We’re doing. Megan. You want to contribute any amphibians to this or fish? I want to see if we can sneak. If we got 10 minutes left, I’d like to sneak in one more statement from. Lars, this was statement #2 for this Part 2. Let’s see if you what you want to do with this. Lars says the key to effective operational change is to find a vehicle. Some means any means. Things that the employees whose work is changing can hold their leadership and sponsors accountable for the success of the program. So this slipping it, taking it back up to leadership. Right, Lars, you want to unpack this briefly and let’s see what Megan and Dean have to say. Go ahead.
Lars Bergmann
Yeah, I think the premise is pretty straightforward. I think when you say to leadership, you need to sponsor this project and oftentimes the projects are their ideas, so they’re on board with that. They think their sponsorship starts or starts and ends at the project level. OK, I’ll sponsor the team. I’ll give them direction, I’ll give them budget. And to me, if they can find a way to Pierce through that and get to the folks where the change is happening. And create that personal connection to the community of individuals that are. Changing and they are there to serve them. Kind of a servant leadership approach to change management. Don’t stop at the project. Take it all the way down to the folks that are doing the work and create that personal relationship and accountability. And that that goes a long way. For folks, because otherwise the Boogeyman that gets created is leadership doesn’t get it. They’re not giving us the money the need. We need the training, the equipment, the materials, the whatever the case. Maybe you can demystify all of that and create a direct connection, and I think your opportunity for the success goes way up.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you very much. One of my recent shows, somebody used the word blame and I said let’s go with accountability and responsibility. I think it’s a much more might have been on the first show I did with Martin Stenzig and some other people here on Rizing. Let’s go around the table. Megan. Agree or disagree with Lars? What do you think?
Megan Butler
From the quote, I was curious what direction he was going to go in. And I wish at some point in time we could all disagree, but unfortunately, we’re just not going to disagree. I totally agree with him. The sponsorship is much more than just, you know, saying some words and helping get some budget around it is a lot more about the actions and I totally agree it’s walking the factory floor and knowing who your people are and what’s really going on, showing and visibly showing, articulating your dedication to the project and the organization and the people doing it is so critical for that success and too often that you see sponsors that that will sabotage the project will hear complaints from the business and go back to the project and articulate the complaints back to them rather than going, oh, you know, what’s the problem and trying to help negotiate it. So they bring problems. Back to the the project that they’re sponsoring. So yeah, that sponsorship role is absolutely critical and walking, walking that factory floor as rocker says is absolutely essential in that in these types of spaces in a senior leadership, when too often you see leaders forget that, especially in a remote world.
Bonnie Graham
Especially in a remote world, and that was one of the somebody had a statement about that we didn’t get to. Does anybody want to address that? Dean, you want to come in here on Lara’s statement and bring in a little something about remote? I think that might have been one of your comments.
Dean Edmondson
Yeah, it was one of mine. So, yeah, I’ll, I’ll leave that in as well. So I like what is and I agree with Megan. Megan, I disagree with you. Just because just because we’re going to throw iIt out there everything you said. But I like what Lars said, and it reminded me of, you know, my world before this world was a lot of project management and were always trying to create this, this connection between the project shareholders and the corporate shareholders. And there should be a common crosswalk. It shouldn’t be project shareholders one side. Corporate shareholders on the other side, there should be 1 common crosswalk project and corporate shareholders are all. The line and I and I agree there that there are certain NGO’s and certain objectives that you put those in place. Then you let the shareholders go and then they all share the results of that. How you find these shareholders, the tie back to you know, where people are located should be based on where the best shareholders in the world. I you know, I think the world has changed a lot over the past 10 years and the point that Bonnie is bringing up is that I had a question in there about remote workforce and how do we leverage remote workforce? And I don’t think that, you know, we should be looking for people in a specific region as much as we should be looking people with certain skills, qualities and attributes. And those people with those skills, quality, not attributes or become part of the team and then they can help the team participate at new levels of capability because of those. Experiences and parting those experiences onto other. People, as were talking earlier when they joined the organization, let’s not feel threatened. Let’s learn from them. Let’s take as much as we can and raise all the ships in the ocean. And I think if we take that approach and we’re, you know, there are some jobs where you just can’t do that, you have to physically be there. But there are some jobs like in the space that we work where we have the flexibility to hire the best irrespective of location, we should continue down that path and have high expectations and solid processes in place so that people are doing their job, they’re satisfied with the work that they’re doing, they’re the customers are happy and we’re all learning together.
Bonnie Graham
Satisfied with the work that they’re doing that is so important, isn’t it? Meghan and your academic research? You must have come across that over and over again. People want to be happy at work. They want to make a contribution. They want to be positive. They want to align with people with similar values. Megan, come in, please.
Megan Butler
Yeah, it is one of those things where the vast majority of people, we can’t say all unfortunately there is like some weird 15%. But the vast majority of people want to come into the workplace, want to do a good job, and it’s one of those things that we see like with onboarding processes right from day one, we can start to zap that out of our employees. And so it’s critical to make sure that we keep them engaged in the work they’re doing, especially as we change the work that they’re doing.
Bonnie Graham
As we changed the work that we’re doing and that gets to the crux of what we’ve been talking about today. Right, changing something, bringing in new technology, managing change, we’re going to be doing something different. Are you with us? We’re going to support you. We’re going to train you. We’re going to love you. We’re gonna all work toward a common goal. And then the question is, is everybody really, really on board? I’m going to look for. We have 2 1/2 minutes left. I’d like to get a closing comment from each of you. We don’t usually do this, but let’s see what we can get. Lars, would you like to give us a closing comment about 45 to 58 seconds worth and then we’ll go around the table, give Megan and Dean a little chance. Dean, second one. I guess I was. Lars, go ahead. You’re first.
Lars Bergmann
Well, first off, thanks for the format here, Bonnie. It, it’s fantastic. I don’t want people to leave this conversation and think that this so nuanced and it’s so difficult and it’s so challenging. It really isn’t it just requires a different way of going about it. You need to meet the employees where they are. The change will happen. Dean brings up a great point around remote work that that is our that’s our new norm. We got to figure out how to do that and do it better. There’s no water cooler to get the feedback and you know those open, honest conversations. I think personally are going to be a little bit more challenging now in this new environment. And if we think that change is over, no way, it’s only just going to accelerate. So there’s way to do ways to do this and there’s ways to do it right. And to have it be very beneficial and exciting for everybody involved. So great conversation today.
Bonnie Graham
Thank you. I think the water cooler is social media, but I’m not sure which platform and I’m not going to go naming them, but you see a lot if you look. When somebody posts something about attending an event or something new happening, or you’ll if you read between the lines, you’ll see a lot of that water cooler coming come out. Although carefully, Megan, final comment, you get 30 seconds and Dean, you got to do it fast. Go ahead, Megan.
Megan Butler
Just really fantastic conversation today and I think we’ve really left and resonated with the point is that it’s up to us and the intelligence we put into our projects before we even start them, not after the fact, trying to deal with the change.
Bonnie Graham
Very well put, Mr. Edmondson. You get the. Last word, go ahead.
Dean Edmondson
Yeah, best teams they share, they’re positive, they collaborate, they celebrate, and they want their teammates to win. And I think we all have to take elements of that, put them, put them into our approach and you know, win as a.
Bonnie Graham
Can we introduce the word empathy and the word caring in there somewhere? Human right. Get the human element in there? Yeah. The soft skills, man. It they matter. They help a lot. I want to thank the three of you. Lars Bergman. It’s wonderful to have you back. Megan. Marie Butler. Love the conversation about your research. You bring so much from academia into this conversation as Dean and Lars.
Dean Edmondson
Yeah, we can.
Bonnie Graham
And Dean Edmondson. I’m Bonnie D and let’s just say people say the future is already here. You’re going to say no, no, no. That was yesterday’s future or that was the sentence I just said. That was in the future. And now it’s in the past. We’re all going to work together to make it a better one. Everybody wave goodbye. Bye. LinkedIn by Facebook by virtually to voice America business. Von, are we good? I’m still waving. What? Thank you very much by social. Let me stop that and let me stop the feed.